Chapter 37 - Eternal Children Doctrine

Eternal Children Doctrine or Eternal Vital Union Doctrine

Error begats error. One departure in fundamental doctrine leads to further departures from the truth, an example of theological "slippery slope." Once the Hardshells abandoned the truth, as expressed in the Old Confessions, especially on the new birth and conversion, and began to take extreme and heretical views on essential doctrine, they found the obtaining of unity among them very difficult, especially with such divergent views emerging on the subject of the new birth. One of those new ideas came to be known as the Eternal Children Doctrine or Eternal Vital Union Doctrine. Elder Beebe became a leading spokesman for this novel idea, together with Elder T. P Dudley and others.


Elder Gilbert Beebe wrote:

"We now speak of his spiritual or mystical body. If it be admitted that they are one with Christ, even as is Christ one with God the Father, we can no more deny the eternal vital union of Christ and his members than we can deny the eternal identity of the Father and the Son in the Godhead."

And further he writes:

"As aliens and strangers we are brought nigh by the blood of Christ, together with the impartation to us of the spirit of adoption, while our vital relation to God is far more ancient and eternal, based upon a life given us in Christ which was never alien to God, but forever hid with Christ in him, and this sonship is developed by a spiritual birth."

(Editorials of Gilbert Beebe, Volume 6 pgs 46-63 June 15, 1864)

The idea that the Lord's elect people had a real or actual existence before the world began was clearly believed and advocated by Elder Beebe. It seems to have been one of the leading ideas associated with Daniel Parker's famed "Two Seed" doctrine. The elect, or chosen "seed," were actually "in Christ" before the foundation of the world. Parker did not go into the later errors of soul sleep or non-resurrection, as Elder Potter made clear (as will be seen). But, he did believe in the pre-existance of the elect.

As one can imagine, there soon developed several absurd consequences to this new and novel idea. One of those is mentioned in the above writing by Beebe. He refers to some objections by Elder Pence (to be referred to later), such as, “Was the spiritual family of God ever corrupted in sin?” Further, what is the "new birth," and how could the elect have been born "children of wrath" IF they were already, from eternity, the children of God?

Wrote neo-Hardshell, James Poole, in defending Beebe's view -- "Well,” they say, “you don’t need to be born again if you were already in Christ.”

(http://www.asweetsavor.150m.com/ejp/eternal.html)

This topic was hotly debated by the first generation or two of Hardshells. It was very nasty at times. Beebe continued to have difficulties uniting his Hardshell brothers under one umbrella with this odd view (and others) that the bulk of the Hardshells could not accept.

Though Elder Daniel Parker was the father of the "Two-Seed Doctrine," he nevertheless did not become the leading spokesman for one of its main ideas, that of the eternal existance of the children of God as an uncreated "seed." The reason why Elder Parker did not continue to be the leading spokesman for the anti mission cause as well as the idea of "eternal vital union," was due I firmly believe, to the views he took relative to the Devil's origin and things relative to his "seed." Were it not for those "hard to swallow" views of Parker, about the origin of Satan, I believe Parker would have continued to be a leader among the first Hardshells, rather than retiring to Texas in relative obscurity, and why the Hardshells disassociated themselves from him.

I also believe that Parker's heretical views on the origin of Satan created a "stigma" around any preaching or doctrinal discussions respecting the origin of Satan, an issue I have referred to earlier in this work, and concerning which I will yet have more to say.

Historically speaking, the first generation or two of Hardshells were still "staking out positions" on doctrine. Once they had abandoned the teaching of the Bible and the Baptist confessions relative to the new birth and conversion, it was inevitable that such an error would lead to other errors in related doctrine. Some of the men who wrote exhaustively against the "eternal children" doctrine were leading Hardshells like Elder Grigg Thompson, Elder J.H. Oliphant, Elder John Clark, and Elder Lemuel Potter. I will also be citing from Hardshell WM CONRAD who wrote much on this subject, both historically and Biblically, and referring to how both Elder Beebe and Elder T.P. Dudley (of the famous old church Bryan's Station) rode this topic as a "hobby horse," and causing division among the newly formed Hardshell denomination. But, before I give their rebuttals to Beebe and other advocates of this idea of Parker's, let me cite other references to this doctrine by Beebe.

Elder Gilbert Beebe - "INCARNATION OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD"

"...the participation of the children of God of flesh and blood, and the incarnation of the Son of God, are placed on the same ground, and based upon the same principle, by the inspired apostle in his epistle to the Hebrews: "Forasmuch, then, as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same." [2:14] To our mind, this text is a key to the subject..."

And again Beebe writes:

"It being established that Christ did exist, not only as God, but also as the Son of God, the only begotten of the Father, and as the first-born, and before all things, and at the appointed time, when the fulness of that time had come, he was sent forth, and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us; so the doctrine of the incarnation of his children, together with that of their previous existence in him, is exemplified. They were created in him, chosen in him, preserved in him, saved and called, according to the purpose and grace which was given them in him before the world began. And all spiritual blessings [past, present, or to come, that the saints ever have, or ever will or can enjoy] were given them according as God hath chosen them in him before the foundation of the world. Eph.1:3,4. Their spiritual, eternal life was given them in Christ before the world began, as their earthly, fleshly life was given them in the earthly Adam, in time. John says, "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." I John 5:11,12."

And further:

"These children in Christ were, in the matchless wisdom of God, destined to partake of the life of the natural Adam."

"So, after this example, that life by which God’s people were identified in Christ before all time, is implanted in those persons, by which God’s chosen people were identified in the earthly Adam. The Holy Ghost comes upon them, and the power of the Highest overshadows them. The incorruptible seed, not by the agency of man, but by the word of the Lord, which liveth and abideth forever, implants in them that spiritual, eternal life which was and is hid with Christ in God, by which is given to them "power to become [manifestly] the sons of God;" and they are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:13."

(From Signs of the Times- September 15, 1856 Vol.24)

This is all quite fantastic of course. It is pure "gnosticism" in Baptist clothing. It is something out of Christian fiction, or something one might expect from those who believe that there are "aliens among us," people with "star seed"! Beebe's and Parker's novel ideas about what constitutes "regeneration" and the "new birth" helped alleviate them from belief that gospel preaching was God's instrument in birthing his people and from their duty to support missions.

Now let us hear Elder Grigg Thompson, who wrote the following with rebuttals against the view of Beebe and Parker, and ironically, even his father, Elder Wilson Thompson." (but more on that later):

"Election is personal, and positive, made in Christ before the world began. "According as he hath chosen us in him, before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love;" Eph., i, 4. I have heard some quote this text in a way of triumph, and say, "How could they be chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, if they did not exist in him before the foundation of the world? "And this existence, they say, "is both in essence and substance." So that I can not understand them, unless they mean that the elect existed in him before the foundation of the world as wheat exists in a sack, or a pig in a pen. They who use such expressions, must be careless readers of their Bibles, or ignorant of their own language; for there is no such an idea contained in the text. A bitter fountain can not send forth sweet water: a sinful seed can not exist in a holy parent. If the elect existed in Christ before the foundation of the world in substance or seed, it was a holy substance or seed, and could not be chosen that it "should be holy; "for it was already holy, and could be nothing else but holy while it existed in Christ unless he became corrupted and unholy; the seed would then inherit the corrupt nature of the parent, and all would be sinners together. God the Father chose his people before the foundation of the world, and he made that choice in Christ, and in Christ he blessed them with all spiritual blessings or things. While God in Christ made this choice, he chose them out of the world, out of all nations, and from among men. The choice was made in Christ, and not in Adam; but they were chosen out of Adam's fallen race." ("The Primitive Preacher," section on "Forgiveness of Sins")

Other Hardshells also began to distance themselves from the view that the children of God pre-existed before their natural births.

Elder James H. Oliphant writes:

We think that the doctrine of the two seeds, as taught by Parker, and also the doctrine of eternal vital union, as held by others, are opposed to the doctrine of election as taught by the bible, and that they are equally as objectionable as the doctrine of election as taught by Wesley. Each of these views finds the reasons of one's election in himself. Wesley ascribes our election to our obedience, which is at war with grace. Parker and others find a difference in the origin of men that accounts for the election of some and the reprobation of others, while the bible puts it upon the sovereignty of God. Eld. Lemuel Potter has recently published a pamphlet in which this subject is fully investigated, in which he has shown that all these views are open to the same objections: These pamphlets can yet be had by addressing Eld. Lemuel Potter, Cynthiana, Posey county, Indiana. (This pamphlet is worthy of a general circulation.)

(from the book "Principles and Practices of the Regular Baptists" -- http://www.upbuild.org/article4/page6.html)

Now let us cite from Elder Potter's book against the doctrine of the eternal seed.

A DENIAL OF THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL CHILDREN, OR TWO SEEDS IN THE FLESH, by Elder Lemuel Potter, 1880, 67 pp.


THE NEW BIRTH

"It is not our intention, in this article, to discuss the subject of the "new birth," or to even introduce it for others to discuss, through the ADVOCATE, but simply to let our readers know where we stand. Our reasons for even that much is, that we have recently received two letters, both of which invited controversy on that subject, on the plea that some of our writers had dropped a remark or two that they did not endorse. We claim the right to publish the doctrine of our people on that, or any other subject, without being under any obligations, whatever, to give space to those who may differ, though they be Primitive Baptists, and our personal friends. THE CHURCH ADVOCATE believes that the sinner, the Adam sinner, is the subject of salvation; that it is the man that is the subject of the new birth, and that this man has a soul and a body, and that the soul is born again, in the work of regeneration in time, and that it goes immediately to heaven when the body dies. We believe that in the resurrection, the body will be born again, and go to heaven, and that the soul and body will be reunited in heaven, and thus the sinner will be born again, and saved. This has been the doctrine of our people for the past two hundred years, provided it was our people who first drew up and published the London Confession of Faith, in England, in the year 1689. In chapter 23, of that confession, we have the following, on "THE STATE OF MAN AFTER DEATH, AND OF THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD."

Note: Did you see the caveat of Elder Potter? "Provide (if) it was our people who first drew up and published the London Confession"! Was it his people, the Hardshells, or not? We will address this later when we discuss Elder Potter further along with Elder Pence, Burnam, and others.

And again, Elder Potter writes:

"In our efforts to identify ourselves with the Old Baptists, against the claims of the missionaries, we claim to be identical with these old English brethren in doctrine. THE ADVOCATE does now stand, and always has stood there, especially on the new birth. We hope that none of our brethren will differ from them, and at the same time claim identity with them. This article is not to controvert the point, but it is intended as a statement of the doctrine of the ADVOCATE, on this subject. It is also intended as an answer to a question, recently, in a letter from Brother J. P. Harris, of Sunfield, Illinois. Prior to this time I had said nothing in the paper on the subject, and yet I knew that our brethren who differed, were preaching on the new birth in almost all their sermons, and that they were trying to intimidate those who opposed them. But I let it all pass, and said nothing for some time afterwards."

There are some very interesting things to observe from the above words of Potter.

1. Potter called into doubt, in the prior quotation, whether the Hardshells were indeed the ones who wrote the Old London Baptist Confession of faith (and just why would he doubt that, except for what it had to say about the new birth and the means used in it?), and yet now says "We hope that none of our brethren will differ from them, and at the same time claim identity with them"!

2. He also affirms that it has been the defense, thus far, of the first generation of Hardshells, in debate with those Baptists who supported missions, and who yet adhered to the Confession on means and the new birth, to not outright deny non-adherance to it, but rather to "twist and distort" what the writers of the old Confession actually said (in much the same way people "twist and distort" the words of holy scripture). This is certainly what was done at the famed "Fulton Convention in 1900 (and of which we will have much more to say later and of which Brother Ross has already addressed in his writings upon this subject).

3. He plainly says that his Hardshells believe the same thing, relative to the new birth, that the Old Baptists believed. This is a total falsehood and one which he was called upon by Elder Pence (and others) to defend in public debate. But, more on that also in later chapters.

Potter went on to say:

"...if we say that in the work of regeneration, the body is born of the Spirit, then we have man in possession of a spiritual body, after regeneration. But Paul still refers to the bodies of the saints as natural, fleshly bodies. If the bodies are not born of the Spirit, in the work of regeneration, in time, then there must, of necessity, be something about man, that really is man, that is not body, that partakes of spirituality, at the time of the new birth, or else no part of man is born of God in time."

This statement partly relates to another controversy swirling about among the first generation of Hardshells. It relates to what part of the man is born again in regeneration? His soul only? Or his body too? What change does this experience bring about in the individual who is born again and regenerated? I will be addressing these issues later.

Potter wrote further:

"I now want my readers to know that the reason I am saying so much on this subject is that there are some who do not believe that man is changed in the new birth, but just a new principle is put into him, and the same old principle that was in him before regeneration, is still in him, and that makes the warfare, and that the whole man, soul, body and spirit, some of them say, is born of God in time, and that the same man, all of him, soul, body and spirit, will die, and remain dead until the resurrection. They make strange of the idea that any part of man goes to heaven at the death of the body. They believe that man is not changed until the resurrection. Then he will be changed. These people, I denominate "No Soulers," and I charge them with believing and preaching heresy. It is not warranted in the Bible, and it antagonizes the Primitive Baptist doctrine. Those who deny the doctrine of a distinction of soul and body have become so intolerant in some localities, that with them a man brother, with whom I am well acquainted, in referring to one of his brethren, who believed as I do, stigmatize him "Doctor of Divinity," with quite a sarcastic air. I think that was a bad spirit."

This all confirms what I said earlier about "error begetting error," about how one departure leads to others and to a "slippery slope," theologically speaking. One can obviously see why the first generation of Hardshells began to "go to seed" on the subject of what constitutes the "new birth." Once you take out conversion and anything connected with knowledge of truth, or cognition, or human choice or activity, you end up with a view of the "new birth" that ends up being a "bunch of nothing"! Hence, you will see how some began to believe in a view of the "new birth" as being one that does not "change" the person, and finally to the view that "regeneration is all on the sub-conscious level" (the view of most modern Hardshells).

Again, Potter writes:

"On account of these facts I have always denied, and do yet deny, that the body is regenerated in time."

And again:

"But I have been often told by good people that the body must be born again, for the Savior said to Nicodemus, "Ye must be born again." They claim that he did not say a part of him, nor he did not say that his soul or spirit must be born again, but he, Nicodemus, must be born again. Let me ask, did he tell Nicodemus that his body must be born again? But "no soulers" claim that the body is born again, for it is the body that weeps and cries and feels badly and condemned."

This all respects what later became known as the "Whole Man Doctrine," the opposite idea of the "no change" view of the "new birth." I will have more to say about that in the next chapters.

Potter continues:

"I do not wish to divide the man up, I do not want to dissect man. I believe I am the man, both soul and body, that is born of God, in the work of regeneration, in time.""

Here Potter seems to believe in the whole man doctrine, but in other places, he states that the body is not regenerated till the resurrection, while the soul in the new birth. Here he seems to put them together "in time"

He writes further:

Is Man Changed in the New Birth?

"We have seen hints from some that man is born of God in time, but not changed until the resurrection. This idea, to me, seems to contradict everything that is said on the subject in the Scriptures, as well as in the experience of the saints. The apostle says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." II Corinthians 5: 17. No one has ever explained to me how a man becomes a new creature, and yet undergoes no change. Those who deny any change in the new birth, must necessarily deny that man becomes a new creature by being born of God, it seems to me. Christ is in the man that is born again. Romans 8: 10. He has the mind of Christ. I Corinthians 1: 16. The love of God is shed abroad in his heart. Romans 5: 5. He has been delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of God's dear Son. Colossians 1: 13. Created in Christ Jesus unto with Christ (sic). Ephesians 2: 5. The eyes of their understanding have been enlightened. Ephesians 1: 18. They were sometime darkness, but are now light in the Lord. Ephesians 5: 8. They have passed from death to life. John 5: 24. God dwelleth in them. I John 4:16. All these things are true of the regenerate man, and none of them are true of the unrenewed man. The no change doctrine is not new among some who once stood with us. They believed that in regeneration, something was simply implanted in the man, that did not change the man. If the sinner is not changed he is not born again. He has been translated into the kingdom of God's dear Son, and if he gets into the kingdom of Christ without being changed, he goes into the kingdom while in a state of enmity against God, for that is the condition he was in before. I claim that in the work of the new birth, the sinner is changed. He was dead, but he now has eternal life. His heart was evil, and it spoke evil things, and Jesus said, "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth evil things, for of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." Luke 6: 45. If man undergoes no change in regeneration, he is just the same in adaptations and in his nature after the new birth that he is before the new birth. Before he is born of God, he is natural, so, if he undergoes no change in the new birth, he is still natural. The apostle says, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." I Corinthians 2: 14. Is it true of the saints that they do not discern the things of the Spirit? Can the saint know the things of the Spirit? We read, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God: that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." The very things that the natural man does not know the saint knows. The natural man is made a saint in the work of regeneration, and the saint knows the things of the Spirit of God, but the natural man does not. So, it is inevitably true that the man is changed in the new birth; not merely changed as to his state and surroundings, but he is changed in his nature. He himself is changed. The apostle Peter intimates that he partakes of the divine nature. He was fleshly before regeneration; he is spiritual after regeneration. "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted." Galatians 6: 1. "Ye that are spiritual." To whom does this important language apply? I hold, and I suppose no one will dispute it, that it applies to the man that has been born of God. Will it apply as truly to the unregenerate? I suppose all will agree with me that it does not. If man was natural before he was born of God, and is spiritual now, since he is born of God, he is certainly changed, is he not? Reader, you say. All these glaring oppositions to the plain teachings of God's word, grow out of the unscriptural idea that all there is of man is body, and we know it is not changed in the new birth; so if we claim that it is born again, we must claim that the sinner is not changed in the..."

In the above, Potter says, "The no change doctrine is not new among some who once stood with us." Yes, and it started with the birth of the Hardshells. Their view of regeneration and the new birth, when looked at fairly and squarely for what it is, is a "no change" view of the subject, in spite of the noble defenses the second generation Hardshells made to the contrary. But, more on all this in later writings.

And again Potter writes:

"But our effort now, is to prove that the very thing we advocate, that, perhaps twenty of our ministers, and a very light sprinkle of brethren in the Mississippi valley, object to, is the very doctrine that Baptists have always believed, and have had in their confession of faith. We shall now call up the late and renowned Elder Daniel Parker, the "Two Seeder." In his Church Advocate , Vol. 2, No. 4, January 1831, page 90, he says: "The soul thus being made immortal by the Spirit of God, is fitted and prepared for the presence of God, and to enjoy him." On the same page he says, "When we turn our attention to the experimental part of the Christian religion, as wrought by the Divine Spirit in the soul, we find it to be the same divine truth, realized by the soul, which is declared in the word of God. The soul is quickened by the Spirit, the dead is made to hear the voice of the Son of God and live." On page 91, he says, "Take away, or deny the work of the Spirit in the internal experimental knowledge of saving grace in or to the soul, and you take away, or deny the truth of the word of God to the soul, the life of the soul, the hope God has wrought in the soul, the comfort of the soul, the love of God in the soul, the divine principle implanted in the soul, the food and clothing of the soul, the warm feeling desires of the soul, the drawing of God's love to the soul, and in fact you take everything that makes religion sweet, the true worship of God delightful, the word of God powerful, the presence of God desirable, and the glory of God as the prime objects of the soul, which stimulates it, in acts of obedience to God from proper and pure motives, for its religion, the life or Spirit of God in the soul, that moves it forward in action, in the service of God at war against sin." We hope the reader will bear in mind that we, in this article, are trying to prove that, upon the subject of what is born again in time, and the state of the dead until the resurrection, we are identical with the Primitive Baptists, not only of the present time, but in all the past.

To this end we will continue to quote from Parker. In the same paper, of July 1831, page 234, six queries were propounded to Elder Parker, and the sixth one was as follows: "Did Adam possess a spirit in his created state superior to animal? As I understand the soul and spirit to be different, dear brother, be pleased to answer these queries, as they are matters of considerable moment to me."

On page 240, after stating that "Adam was certainly a natural being, and not a spiritual one, when created," etc., he concludes his answer, as follows: "There is a controversy as to which is the existing part of man, the soul or spirit, and I have no doubt that both terms are used in the word of truth, as expressive of that part of man, which will eternally exist, but I think you will understand me as to that part of man which I have been pointing out, and as to any thing further on this subject, I 8th number." On page 180, of the same paper, we find his answer in number 8, and in it he says, "I do not consider the bare lump of clay, separate from the soul, to be the man, neither the soul separate from the body, but it took both soul and body to complete the Adam which God created."

We also have before us a circular letter, written in 1849, by the late Elder Joel Hume, in which he treats on the regeneration of the soul, and the resurrection of the body, and he is very pointed, and stands in line with all the foregoing witnesses, on the subject before us. Our next witness will be the late Elder John M. Watson, in Old Baptist Test, page 551: "It is a matter of surprise that any should have supposed that the soul, after the death of the body, passes into a state of insensibility, which will continue until the morning of the resurrection." On page 550, he says, "As the regenerated soul is endowed with eternal life, its destinies extend far beyond the present world, time, and time things." On Page 551, he says, "The renewed soul at death is in a state to enter heaven." On same page, "The soul can exist without a body, but the body can not exist without the soul. The soul can not die." On page 552, he says, "Christ makes a clear distinction of soul and body in the following words. "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him, who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Our next witness is the late Elder John Clark, of Virginia, the founder of Zion's Advocat, which is now published by Elder T. S. Dalton. In volume 10, of that paper, Feb. 14, 1871, page 272, he gives his readers a very able article on regeneration, in which he says, "No change takes place in the mental powers of man after regeneration at any time, and the souls of the redeemed go immediately to heaven at death, for which they were fully and effectually prepared in regeneration, as heaven is a prepared place for a prepared people, as some one has justly said, and hence the Redeemer said to the malefactor that hung by his side on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise;" and John saw "the souls of them that were slain for the word of God under the altar." Revelations 6: 9; 20: 4. They were then absent from the body and present with the Lord; and those that had killed their bodies, could do nothing more; they could not kill their souls. Their bodies were, and still are, under the power of the grave, though their ransomed spirits are before the throne." Elder Clark believed that the soul of man was redeemed and renewed in regeneration. He says it in this article. We have now seen that the Waldenses, and the old English Baptists, and the first American Baptists, and our own authors of the present century, as Parker, Hume, Watson, and Clark, have all written that when the body dies the soul goes immediately to heaven or hell.

All these authors believed in the resurrection of the body, and the salvation of the Adam sinner. None of them believed in the doctrine of eternal children. We have others present, but can not quote them in this article, as Elder Jesse Cox, Dr. John Gill, and others who believed as we do. These have been our spiritual fathers; I Corinthians 4: 15, and they have all believed without controversy, that at death the soul left the claims to the name of old Primitive Baptists. We are truly sorry that any of our dear brethren are engaged in opposing this Old Baptist doctrine. Some of them are very near to us, and we do not wish to treat them unkindly, but when they make a fight against the doctrine we, and our church as a denomination, have always believed, it wounds us. Shall we be compelled to be neutral on this point, while others, in almost all their sermons and exhortations, are preaching that the entire man, soul, body, and spirit, dies, and remains dead until the resurrection? We do not believe that doctrine, and we find no comfort in it, and we are sure that wherever it has been advocated, it has caused trouble, and we feel sure that it is neither the doctrine of the Bible, nor of the Baptists. We have been advised by some to let the matter go, and say nothing about it, especially those who teach that all the man dies, say that we are the agitator of the matter. That is just what the Missionary Baptists said about us, that it was our opposition to missionism that caused the division, and not the introduction of missionism. We made no noise about missionism in our churches until it came into our churches; just so, we made no fight on the doctrine that the whole man dies, until it was preached among us."

Note: Potter here claims that Gill is one of their "founding fathers". More on that later.

Potter continues:

" But I wish to call one more witness to this question. Elder G. M. Thompson, in his book called Primitive Preacher, says, on page 144, "It is not that he is a new creature physically; he is the same person he was, his flesh is not changed and immortalized, as it will be in the resurrection, but he is renewed in the spirit of the mind by a gracious principle imparted from above, which changes the affections of the soul, which sways and guides him in another way, and to a different end than he ever acted before."

On page 145, he says, "Our bodies may be said to be new bodies by the change wrought in them, and the endowments bestowed upon them in the resurrection. So the soul is now resurrected from a death in sin, and renewed by imparting new principles to it in the work of regeneration." Again, he says, "This new creation is the first work of the Spirit in the soul of the sinner, preparing it to receive and enjoy the salvation that is in Christ Jesus. Page 170. One more witness to this point is all that I will trouble the reader with to show that I stand, doctrinally, where our people have always stood, and that to elbow me off for advocating the doctrine that the soul lives after the death of the body is to treat me unjustly."

"In the circular letter of the Ketocton Association, of Virginia, in the year 1890, this old time-honored body of Baptists, the fifth association constituted in the United States, said: "The doctrine of regeneration now claims our attention, as this is the pivotal point from which departures are taken when error enters the Baptist fold.

We begin with the statement that we believe in the existence of the human soul, though unable to define it. The words of the Master's warning, "fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell," Matthew 20: 28, are sufficient to justify us in holding this cornerstone of faith.

About half a century ago metaphysics was introduced among the Old School Baptists, and men began to question the existence of the soul; hence, the regeneration of the soul was denied.

Note: I agree with this statement wholeheartedly! It is a characteristic of the Hardshells. In many ways it is pure gnosticism. But, more on this later.

Potter continues:

Among the many theories invented, the most plausible and popular was that of eternal spiritual existence in Christ, as our seminal head; and implantation into the Adam sinner, making no change in soul, body, nor spirit; hence, non-resurrection, and a host of equally fatal heresies, came in a natural course.

Into this error, by the mercy of God, the Ketocton Association did not fall; but through the dark days, when this cloud was most threatening, she declared her belief in the regeneration of the soul, by the Spirit of God; eternal life being the result of begetting by the Holy Ghost, whose presence in the soul is manifested by a change so apparent that even the ungodly take knowledge of the saint that he has been with Jesus." Ever since those new things were introduced among the Baptists there have been little factions here and there whose feelings are so very sensitive on the subject of the regeneration of the soul, or the separate existence of the soul after the death of the body, that the man who still contends for the old doctrine of the church is, to say the least of it, admonished to that subject causes unpleasant feelings in some places."

"...the "no change" doctrine...has caused so much distress among our people in some places..."

This statement ought to be fully weighed. Why has the "no change" view of regeneration been such a prevalent one among the Hardshells? Is it not because they divorced conversion from regeneration? More on this later too.

Potter writes further:

"Those who hold the doctrine of eternal children might tell us, but those who deny that doctrine and who reject the doctrine that any part of the child of God came down from heaven, must have some other idea about it."

http://www.paradisepbc.org/Articles/regenpotter.htm

Let us pick out, from the above words of Potter, these statements:

"The no change doctrine is not new among some who once stood with us. They believed that in regeneration, something was simply implanted in the man, that did not change the man. If the sinner is not changed he is not born again."

But, after all I have shown of the views of the Hardshells on the "new birth," is it not obvious that their view of what it is amounts to a bunch of nothing? Does it not, in the final analysis, amount to the "no change" view? Oh yes, they will speak of the dead sinner being "alive," and so speak of a "great change," but when you look at all the things absent from that "life," then it becomes a bunch of nothing, actually no change at all.

"I claim that in the work of the new birth, the sinner is changed."

Yes, but in Potter's description he had a man being made to love God and Christ Jesus. He cited scripture passages that referred to regeneration as being "enlightened." These are terms that show that the means of applying gospel truth to the mind and heart are part and parcel of regeneration. Yes, he and the majority of Hardshells did claim to believe in the great change affected in regeneration, but the consistent ones, advocated the "no change" doctrine. Again, I repeat, if you take the elements of "conversion" away from "regeneration" then you have nothing left.

"The very things that the natural man does not know the saint knows...the saint knows the things of the Spirit of God..."

But, what are these things that a regenerated soul "knows"? If "regeneration" is all on the "sub-conscious level," then "knowing" anything, truth or otherwise, is not part and parcel of regeneration. Why then does Potter seem to believe otherwise?

"None of them believed in the doctrine of eternal children."

He says this relative to his Hardshell "founding fathers," leaving out, of course, men like Beebe. This is really not that unusual as most Hardshells will pick and choose which of the first and second generation Hardshells they will accept in their "church geneology." But, it is not true that all the first founding fathers of Hardshellism disbelieved this doctrine, for Beebe, Dudley, Parker, and others, believed it. And, there is much reason for believing that Wilson Thompson also did, although his son Grigg Thomspson did not, as the above citations prove. When he says "these have been our spiritual fathers," and includes Gill. But, I have already cited Gill and shown that he did not believe the Hardshell view. I will have more to say on this later.

"About half a century ago metaphysics was introduced among the Old School Baptists."

What a insightful admission! Have all that I have written thus far not evidence of the truth of that statement? They have made the "faith of God's elect," some kind of "metaphysical spiritual goo," as I have afore written.

"Among the many theories invented, the most plausible and popular was that of eternal spiritual existence in Christ, as our seminal head; and implantation into the Adam sinner, making no change in soul, body, nor spirit; hence, non-resurrection, and a host of equally fatal heresies, came in a natural course.

Notice how there is admission here that the "eternal children doctrine" has been popular among the Hardshells. Sometimes they will deny this, wanting to hide the fact, but other times the facts are honestly presented by someone.

"...the "no change" doctrine...has caused so much distress among our people in some places..."

This again proves what I just said. The Hardshells will often speak as if this error never caused much problem, then at other times you get the honest facts of the case, as in the above.

Seeing this is such an important area to look at, relative to the history and heresies of the PB's, I will split this topic into two chapters.

In the next chapter I will conclude this look at the doctrine of "eternal children," and then go on to talk about the "whole man" versus the "hollow log" view of the new birth.